|  rainkeltoia | Jul 25, 2007 6:01pm | | My apologies, I definitely thought this was something completely different. Thank you for the insight. |
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Sponsor |  Ewtn2000 | Jul 26, 2007 6:13pm | | Well as much as I hate to jump in, but I guess we can go back to when baptism for Christians was being done... In Jesus' time and the time right after His death. There are plenty of writings from the early Christian Fathers that all speak of baptism as being required for washing away of original sin. |
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Sponsor | | lesoldham | Jul 26, 2007 6:36pm | Act 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Act 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Act 11:17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
The angel said that they would be saved by the WORDS Peter spoke. Jesus implied that baptism in the Holy Spirit would replace baptism by water. The gentiles in this passage were filled with the Holy spirit without water baptism. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Jul 27, 2007 4:44pm | | I understand your present day interpretation of the scriptures. And this is one trouble that I see happens when we believe that the Holy Spirit will speak to us as we read the Bible ourselves, that we can and do interpret in the correct manner. This problem is not new. People have thought that from the beginning, hence the letters written to the different Churches to set them straight. All I am saying that if we want to know what was taught and accepted by the Apostles and their disciples, we must go to documents that come as close as possible to the time the Church and it's teachings where being spread. Read what Justin Martyr wrote in 151 AD in "First Apology" or what Irenaeus wrote in 190 AD, Cyprian of Carthage in his Letters, 253 AD. etc. etc. Then read all those who believed otherwise and where still called Christian... oh yeah, there were no other teaching... |
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Sponsor | | ntltrmllgnc | Jul 28, 2007 9:00am | I think there are two questions:
1. Did God/HS/JC/Apostles speak to people who analyzed information?
2. Is the ritual the cause or is God accepting our rites and holding up his end of the agreement?
1. I highly doubt that. It's easier for a person to understand "do this to be saved by the grace of God" than "do this and God shall save you". If he had said the latter they would not have understood. God knew that.
2. I don't think there's miracle power in the rite itself. I think anything that happens is God's doing.
The question remains then "Does God have a reason for us to do things this way?"
And let's not forget "Even the Son of Man must be baptized". |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Jul 28, 2007 1:59pm | 1. I think to throw out a blanket statement that God didn't speak to people who analyzed information is a mistake. Just because people lived in the past doesn't mean they never did critical thinking, analyzed, nor questioned. So the answer to that is not a no, but a definite yes.
2. Now is baptism for us or for God? God doesn't have to follow His rules, men do. Those rules are for men, God already lives in heaven (so to speak) Is there a miracle, yes, life itself is a miracle. Reading the critical thinkers of the past, as they analyzed the information given by Christ, you will see these questions being brought to the surface and then answered. There seems to be unanimous agreement among the Church Fathers on this matter. But I do agree that whatever happens is Gods doing, yet He has given His Church Authority to act on His behalf on certain matters. God is baptizing the person through our hands.
"Does God have a reason for us to do things this way?"
Our salvation.
"Even the Son of Man must be baptized".
Jesus certainly did not need to be forgiven. And he no doubt wanted us to follow his example. Jesus was baptized to make all the waters in the world holy and usable for baptism. |
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Sponsor | | ntltrmllgnc | Jul 28, 2007 2:15pm | Critical thinking is not an instinct. It has to be taught and then you have to have confidence in it. It's much more effective to say to people do X and be saved than do X and I will save you. The former involves 1 element, the latter 2 elements. When it comes to understanding, people rarely can keep track of more than 3 to 5 elements at a time.
The reason I bring this up is that Abel offered the first of his flock which is a symbol for the crucifixion, where as Cain offered his harvest which is empty sacrifice and egotism. It really underscores the fine line between worship and imitation. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Jul 28, 2007 3:36pm | | Are you saying that critical thinking is only a thing of the present? That there where no critical thinker in any other time but the present? There were brilliant people in all times of history. |
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Sponsor | | ntltrmllgnc | Jul 28, 2007 7:58pm | I'm saying talking critical will not reach those who need to hear it.
By being baptized and following instructions people learn by practice what would take much discussion to describe otherwise. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Aug 4, 2007 8:42am | | Some will just do what they are told, while others will ask why, and out of this come the Church theologians. |
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Philosophy of Religion → Discussion