Sponsor |  Vortexfugue | Jan 21, 1:11pm | | Not so. Most scientists believe life existing elsewhere is very likely, but there are some scientists who don't believe life exists elsewhere. There are scientists who also don't believe the universe is part of a hyperverse, and yet they continue to explore that possibility. I don't believe that a 20-leaf clover exists in the meadow, but I continue to look for it. If I'm reading your chart right, it appears to force things to not exist until they are discovered... an 11-dimensional universe for example. |
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|  mhdk | Jan 21, 1:43pm | OK... so of the scientists who believe life exists elsewhere is very likely, they think it is reasonable to go looking for it. Those scientists who believe otherwise would think it is a waste of time to go looking for it. As soon as a person cannot rule out a possibility and still thinks it reasonable then they will still consider it.
I think you mean that a person can only "believe" something if they have ruled everything else out.
So, if I am forbidden to use the words in any other way, I must express myself some other way... Here goes: The mind cannot deal with uncertainty, and it will continually search for answers, swaying from one answer to another unless you find some way of putting it all to rest. This is to say that you believe one thing, then another, then another, then maybe the first thing and so on. At any one moment in time, there is no "undecided".
If you are in this state of mind where your mind sways from one idea to another, and then you decide on an approach to resolving this question such as you will "seek" God, then this decision is effectively the same as deciding that God exists, and eventually that you will find evidence to support it. Only if your mind sways from this approach to another approach that allows for the non-existence of God, can you accurately say that you are "exploring" for an answer to whether God exists or not. And despite all this, if you still believe that you are approaching the question with an open mind, then when you do "find" evidence to support God, you will find it hard to question.
As for your scientists.... some of them have decided on an approach that will prove one way or another whether alien life exists. They are trying to find planets with life. The same cannot be said of those "searching" for God because when they do find "evidence" for God, it is always inconclusive. So it should come as no surprise that using an emotional response as a final arbiter becomes necessary for believing in such. And none of this escapes the fact that, because the mind works in a either-or way by making decisions in whatever way possible, and when you stop the natural sway of to-and-fro, which marks an undecided state of mind, by "seeking for God" and deciding on no evidence... THEN yes, no surprise you will believe in God.
Hope that helps!
Edit: Just noticed your other point about the chart. If you have reason to believe that an 11-dimension universe exists because in searching for an answer to another question, you find that it could work, then you have reasonable grounds to believe that such exists. It all depends on whether the 11-d universe reconciles with other theories and facts, as to whether you eventually settle on it. Hope that helps. The chart is more to show that you haven't settled a question until you've found a consistent answer. |
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Sponsor | | Vortexfugue | Jan 21, 2:29pm | At any one moment in time, there is no "undecided".
Sure there is... I, and scientists, are undecided about a whole slew of things. I, and scientists, may believe or not believe a whole range of things about them. Surely we can find a Scientist A who believes differently about Item 4 than a Scientist B does. I suspect that both Scientist A and Scientist B have separated emotion from logic as much as possible, and yet both believe differently about them. |
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| | mhdk | Jan 21, 2:43pm | re: there is no "undecided"
I think you have zoned in on a word, rather than looked at the whole picture I was presenting. However, in fairness, I can see how you would say what you did. So let's see can I avoid using the word "undecided", so that you wont try to understand what I've said through the filter of your definitions...
If you have decided that particular answers have no answer as yet, and you have either decided on an approach to try to solve these questions, or you are in the business of swaying to-and-from various approaches to the problem... then this would fairly describe the scientists who are investigating the questions you indicated.
Note that this largely points to a decided state of mind in all respects except for having an actual answer. They decide on an approach, and follow it through until they think the approach is no good, and then they try another approach or they find an answer.
So when I said, there is no such thing as "undecided" then I was refering to the fact that if you have not decided that there is a definite answer, and you have not decided on an approach to finding an answer, then your mind will be in turmoil.
Again, in fairness, this is describing a state of mind that more or less nobody is in, or is in only for a very short while, because most of the time a person has either settled on an answer to something, or has settled on an approach on how to answer it.
I thank you for making me be clearer as it has made me realise something: The real difference between the person "seeking" or "exploring for" God and the scientists investigating the problems you refer to, is that the former person has decided on an approach that can only result in "finding" God, whereas the scientists have an open ended approach. |
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Sponsor | | Vortexfugue | Jan 21, 2:59pm | | My mind is not in turmoil and I have been undecided about multiple universes for about 30 years and I haven't come up with an approach to it yet either. I don't have enough information to believe anything about it, so "we just don't know" suffices perfectly fine. In exactly the same way, I have no evidence for an earth-sized planet orbiting a star ten thousand light years away and any life forms on it. My mind is not in turmoil about it and I don't believe anything about it. Of course, it might certainly exist. Wonder should not be confused with mental turmoil. |
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| | mhdk | Jan 21, 3:11pm | I would say that if you were interested in answering the question at all then your mind would automatically turn towards applying an approach to answering the question. If you lose interest then so be it. I guess that was something that I should have added to the picture I was painting.
So... if you are undecided about the answer to a question, and currently interested in answering the question then your mind will automatically find an approach and you will apply it. Maybe the approach involves intellectually thinking it through... maybe it involves picking up a pen and starting to write as if being controlled by the walking undead... I don't know.
The people who say that they opened their hearts to God, or they went exploring for God, had several things going on in their minds, I would suggest. Firstly, they were at first genuinely undecided about whether God existed or not. Secondly, they had decided on an approach that could only result in "finding" God. Thirdly, they would have decided that reason cannot be used to answer this question. Fourthly, the nature of this approach meant that whenever their mind was naturally inclined to apply this approach they would automatically interpret "evidence" to be indicative of God's existence, especially as far as they are concerned, reason cannot be used to say otherwise. |
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Sponsor | | lesoldham | Jan 21, 8:24pm | | Well mhdk my mind is in turmoil. I have no idea what you are talking about. |
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| | mhdk | Jan 22, 1:36am | | I can live with that! |
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Philosophy of Religion → Discussion